Guerini's "routes": "Meloni is with the EU, who is Salvini on the side of? The League is inconsistent. Ukraine is the government's short circuit."

Lorenzo Guerini and his "routes." The demilitarization of Ukraine? "It's equivalent to handing it over to Putin. It's an option that doesn't exist." Peace in Alaska? "You can't give Russia what it doesn't have." We Europeans? "We won't give up what we are." Former Defense Minister and President of COPASIR, Guerini, the very cautious member of the Democratic Party, speaks out, telling Il Foglio: "A governing majority can't support everything and its opposite. A majority must clearly state who it stands on." Guerini, there's a Prime Minister who's with Kyiv, and an ally, Matteo Salvini, who declares that "von del Leyen can bring Trump a drink, that Europe counts for less than zero." What are you bringing: salts for Meloni or lemonade for Salvini? "What can I say? Since we're at the joke level, I'll allow myself to bring up the great Massimo Troisi: I thought it was Orbán, but instead it was Salvini..." General Vannacci is at least authentic, the original.

Is it normal to have a government ally, Salvini, who disavows his government's foreign policy? Guerini says that "we are now living in a period in which consistency and credibility are no longer a value. We live with a majority that says everything and its opposite on these issues, and it does so without any embarrassment because politics has become like a restaurant menu: everyone chooses the course they like best." Meloni has chosen Europe, and she chose it together with Antonio Tajani, but Salvini has returned to his brutalist phase. For two days he has been proposing to raze Roma camps, and he cheers, with even more affection, for Trump, who says of Europeans: "They depend on me." Guerini speaks of "caveats" and clarity that Meloni should be the first to demand from her ally: "Those who govern must clearly communicate where they stand. They must state which caveats they consider essential for peace in Ukraine and what the position of the governing parties is on Europe, which are playing both inside and outside." The former minister calls it "Salvini's game," but it's a game, he explains, that "risks being a negative outcome for our country. Sooner or later, the pattern where part of the government is with von der Leyen and part is against will short-circuit." It's a strange August, the month of sunny thoughts. Meloni calls the Democratic Party's attacks on tourism "shameful," and the Democratic Party responds that Meloni's attacks are "North Korean-esque." Guerini, who isn't content with petty controversies, suggests returning to the discussion of freedom, Ukraine, and the truly shameful attacks by Russia: "The demilitarization of Ukraine means handing that country over to Putin's imperial designs. It's simply a nonexistent option, and it's no coincidence that it only exists in the minds of Medvedev or Zakharova. And therefore, it can't be Italy's position. Let's not joke." We ask him whether a peace deal is being prepared in Alaska or simply Ukraine's surrender, and Guerini replies that "in Ukraine, there is a war underway, prompted by Moscow. This isn't a conflict between two sides over territorial claims. It's a criminal attack by Putin, and a people, the Ukrainians, who are defending themselves from the invasion. This incontrovertible premise must be kept firmly in mind to establish concrete and fair negotiations, as far as possible. I expect the United States to start from here in its dialogue with Russia, also because, despite the mainstream narrative some people tell us, the military conditions on the ground aren't even in place to grant Putin what he doesn't have." We ask him if it's true that some in Europe are rooting for the summit to fail, and Guerini turns the question around: "In Europe, perhaps unknowingly, there are those who have served Putin's imperialist aims. I'm referring to those who have had ambiguous attitudes toward that regime in the past. I'm the first to hope the Alaska meeting goes well, but well means reaching a ceasefire, establishing negotiations that prioritize Kyiv's security guarantees and the freedom of Ukrainians to decide their own future, starting with their relationship with the EU. That is, what Putin tried to deny with the wicked and shameful aggression of February 1922." We invite him to imagine the world after mid-August. Will it be global order or disorder? And Guerini: "We are living in a period of turbulent global disorder. World order has never fully existed. This is a period in which power relations are being redefined, establishing new balances, however unstable. We are arriving at this point with actors who are increasingly unpredictable in their behavior and choices, as we are seeing with Trump on tariffs. I believe that we, and I mean us Europeans, have the responsibility to navigate this period concretely, without renouncing what we are: international law, multilateralism, and the legalization of conflicts to prevent them from escalating into military confrontations." What position will the Democratic Party take? Guerini offers one word: clarity. "It's the clarity that Elly Schlein used on Ukraine. Without fear. We're European protagonists, but a stronger Europe can only start from its defense capabilities. We must explain and convince Italians that our future depends on this too. Smoothing over public opinion is a practice best left to others. It may yield immediate returns, but then it backfires because there will always be a new populist who is more populist than his predecessor." At this point, we end up raising the stakes: Guerini, if Trump deserves the Nobel Prize (according to Salvini), should we at least give Meloni the Grand Cross of Europeanism? And he: "Oh well, I understand the conversation is over and let's get back to the initial jokes..."

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